CHARISMATICA

Comment from Will Phillips
Time: July 11, 2007, 11:38 am

If it is about gold dust, angel feathers, gold fillings and guys and gals with ‘Prophet’ in front of their names passing the collection plate and acting like rock stars, then count me out. If it is about re-establishing and implementing a true prophetic calling and gifting in the church, then count me in, I am part of that lower case ‘p’ prophetic movement.

I couldn’t agree more!

Comment from carl
Time: July 11, 2007, 11:42 am

Can’t wait to read the book!

What I wonder is, how can someone be “out” of the prophetic movement? Since the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy would that mean that someone could not testify for Jesus?

And I don’t know why people get so freaked out by gold dust and the likes. I have seen it. I really like it. I don’t see it today but I wish I did. It is an incredible testimony to skeptics. I prayed for a woman one time and there was so much gold on her that I freaked out. when she shook her hair it almost rained out of it. I am pretty sure I don’t have a demon that caused that (why would a demon cause that anyway?)

The “prophetic” movement that I am not a part of are those that think their gifts exalt them above the average believer. I have met people with genuine gifts of prophecy behave this way. But I have seen pastors, teacher, evangelists and apostles with the same attitude.

Comment from slw
Time: July 11, 2007, 9:08 pm

“If it is about re-establishing and implementing a true prophetic calling and gifting in the church, then count me in”

I can go there with you.

Comment from Michael
Time: July 11, 2007, 10:29 pm

Carl:
“The “prophetic” movement that I am not a part of are those that think their gifts exalt them above the average believer.”-Amen that is what I am talking about.

It is presumption, arrogance, and self promotion that bothers me when I see it. It’s the attitude that some carry that folks should not question Gods anointed.

Carl- If God sovereignly rains down gold dust on people then Praise God! However, I have seen fliers that seem to promote and promise gold dust and angel feathers to those who come to their meetings. That is what I am reacting against.

I have also known some well known prophetic ministers up close and personal that had incredible anointing and yet are humble servants and regular folks. Those are the ones that help and encourage churches to develop their own prophetic ministry. That is the ‘prophetic’ movement that I value.

Unfortunately, many critics lump all the prophetic ministries together and oppose everything prophetic and call it ‘The Prophetic Movement’.

Comment from janelle
Time: July 12, 2007, 2:43 pm

Great post. My brother Jesse loves your site, so I thought I would check it out. Bravo!!!!

Comment from JC Smith
Time: July 12, 2007, 10:01 pm

First qualify what it is that makes someone a Prophet biblically. Is it because they are used in a prophetic utterance?
Secondly, many in the prophetic movement have tried to shift blame for excess by claiming that there is no prophetic movement. Yet they manage to have their own conferences, teams, and doctrines.
They do not believe that they are responsible for the errors because they do not have a “letterhead” for the move. But the word says “Blessed are they that do not condemn themselves by what they approve”. They should have called out the error long ago but none of them are willing to do it. That is the same as a mandate to those in error.
Since when is barking like a dog, left leg anointings, gold dust and angel worship acceptable?
Give me a real prophet any day, give me the real prophetic any day. Keep all of the rest of it because it reeks.

Comment from Michael
Time: July 13, 2007, 7:18 am

Janelle: Thanks for visiting.

Wow, your site is really good, and thanks for carrying on the 5 Things about Jesus. Excellent job. I like your posts on worship music, a real interest of mine.

Comment from Michael
Time: July 13, 2007, 7:36 am

JC: Just because ministries do not publicly criticize another ministry does not mean that they are in agreement. Also, many ministries do contact others when they think that they may be out of alignment Biblically. They do this privately and not in public like some of the self-appointed heresy hunters.

The Vineyard movement that I am part of, unfortunately split over the ‘barking dog, roaring lion deal’. I wished that they could have worked it out.

I know of no ministry that believes in ‘angel worship’, I do however have concerns about those who seem to seek angel visitations and strange manifestations like angel feathers.

There flat out is no ‘Prophet Movement’ like many seem to want to expose. There are a bunch of ministries that have a lot in common and do have some conferences together.

Even if some ministries have conferences together, that does not mean they are in total agreement over everything.

What is your definition of a ‘real prophet’ JC? I am not sure that I have ever met one. In fact I am sure that I haven’t! I have however been blessed by real prophetic ministry.

Comment from JC Smith
Time: July 13, 2007, 8:41 am

A real modern prophet? How about David Wilkerson, Art Katz, Keith Green, Mario Murillo?
It seems kind of convenient to be a “bunch of ministries that have a lot in common and do have some conferences together” without having to deal with any of the issues that are rampant in your group.
Look at the fruit of this group: One of the major prophetic voices was found to be a homosexual and a drunkard. The major errors of Toronto including birthing all of the laughing, gold dust, angel feathers, portal openings, etc. The incredible number of false words given constantly by their “prophets”.
The number one calling of a prophet is not to bless people. It is not to teach or impart revelation. It is to call people to repentance and consecration.

Comment from JC Smith
Time: July 13, 2007, 8:42 am

Art Katz wrote:
The Office of Prophet and the Gift of Prophecy

An important distinction to make that I think is being blurred is the gift of prophecy as opposed to the office of being a prophet. In fact, that may be the gravest mistake now being made, of calling a man ‘prophet’ who is only moving in the gift of prophecy, but is not called to the office. I cannot think of anyone in the New Testament that exhibits the office of prophet, but to me that is not a problem. The fault lies with us in thinking that this is a New Testament dispensation that therefore requires another definition. If there is only one definition, however, and it is and has been in existence for all time, though we have not seen it in recent times, then it is no reason to look for a new kind.

The difference between the gift of prophecy and the office of prophet is a very important point. We would be wrong to say that anyone who prophesies is a prophet. The Spirit of God is dividing severally His gifts, which God can give in a moment as He wills. That should not, however, be a permanent and abiding distinction or designation. The Spirit of God can fall on any one of us and we can prophesy. We are operating by the Spirit in the gift of prophecy. The gift is something that the Spirit exercises at His will, and it can come from a man or a woman. It has nothing to do with their calling, their training, their preparation or their qualification. It may be informational, directive or a word of encouragement, but the office of the prophet is altogether something else and other.

The office of prophet differs from the gift of prophecy in that it is permanent. It is given with the man. It is a calling, and it may well be that men, who have the office of prophet, can go an entire lifetime in their service and never once speak out of the gift of prophecy, and yet still be functioning in their office. The church today is suffering from the ignorance of blurring these two categories. We are calling men prophets who have not the office, but who are operating in the gift of prophecy, and in many instances not even the gift of prophecy, but the gift of knowledge of a rather deceitful clairvoyance. We really need to be clear, therefore, on what we are saying.

The office of prophet is the ultimate thing and carries an enormous responsibility. Such a one brings the oracles of God. He is standing for very God and speaking from God with the authority of God in a troubled and final generation. His statements are the statements of God’s heart to His people that have to do with His purposes in an understanding of the present time in view of the things that are future and eternal. It is the prophet who is alerted. He interprets the event and communicates that interpretation to a church that would otherwise have passed it over. That is his function and that is his call for which he is not necessarily going to be understood nor heard. The word is more often than not going to be rejected and his life is going to be threatened.

Comment from slw
Time: July 13, 2007, 10:09 am

JC,
I don’t think I can agree with what you quoted from Art Katz. To equate the OT prophet with the NT prophet is a big mistake. John was the last of that regimen, and there will not be another. Perhaps those two witnesses for 1260 days, but that is in Jerusalem and has to do with the final ingathering of Israel. OT prophets stood out according to the descriptive material you quoted because the Spirit was not poured out on and in the whole community. That is not true now where to not be born of the Spirit is to not be part of the family. Now when one prophesies others judge. Prophets are truly just another one of us now. To say that the office of a prophet has nothing to do with prophesying is completely nonsensical– like saying the office of a pastor has nothing to do with shepherding or the office of an apostle doesn’t mean you will be sent. Perhaps some of the difficulty here is in not understanding exactly what prophecy is, and I can’t see anything in what you quoted that is in agreement with a NT in that regard. I do like some of the figures you cited like David Wilkerson or Keith Green, but there is no intimation in the NT that either the manifestation of prophecy nor the leadership gift of prophet would be rare. When our take on practice and the language we use to describe it, doesn’t line up with the Word, then it’s time to revisit our understanding of what the Word actually says, and then make adjustments accordingly.

Comment from JC Smith
Time: July 13, 2007, 10:47 am

The mistake is in the understanding of the spiritual gifts versus the offices. Because you are used in the gifts of healing does that give you the office of “healer”? What about speaking in tongues? Should there be an office called “Tongues Speaker”?
That would make no sense, because the gifts are given severally as He wills it, to the entire body.
The offices are quite distinct and separate from the gifts. But by confusing this, we have given men the title of prophet who were not one at all.
Your contention that John was the last prophet and there will never be another is not scriptural at all, I see no evidence of this. In fact, to make the jump from what a prophet was according to the OT and what these charlatans are today would be unprecedented in scripture.
Also, i could not disagree more with your statement that “but there is no intimation in the NT that either the manifestation of prophecy nor the leadership gift of prophet would be rare.” This is akin to the teaching that there is no spiritual authority any more, that we are all equals now spiritually. And I see no basis for this anywhere in scripture in fact, this exact thing is what Korah claimed right before the Lord destroyed him.

Here is a link to the entire Katz article:
http://www.praize.com/classics/article.php?id=399

Comment from slw
Time: July 13, 2007, 11:34 am

Michael,
Feel free to cut this discussion off if you feel it’s of no benefit. I don’t want to overstep myself in your house.

JC,
I fully agree that there is a distinction between being used spontaneously in prophecy (that would be a manifestation)and in the ministry of a prophet (what you’re calling an office). But to not recognize that there are people who repeat regularly certain manifestations (like healing or prophecy or tongues or interpretation) is not to understand the difference between manifestions of the Holy Spirit (I Cor 12:7-11) and gifts (ministries) of the Spirit (12:28-31).

My contention about John is not mine but Christ’s (Luke 7:28, Matthew 11:23). OT type prophets and prophesying are over! The function of a NT prophet is to speak revelatorily, not to exert authority. As for the rarity for the NT prophetic gift that you espouse, show it to me in scripture and I’ll agree with you. You won’t find it there, however.

I agree with you that there are charlatans today, maybe most of them that claim the gift for themselves, but we don’t need to deal with that by going extra-scriptural. Paul told us what prophets speak, so we should expect them to, and make room for them to. Some of them will rise to leadership in the church along with apostles, evangelists, and pastor/teachers. All of it will be to God’s glory.

Comment from janelle
Time: July 13, 2007, 1:10 pm

Michael, thanks for the encouragement. I linked to your website, fyi, and hope to visit here on a regular basis.

Comment from JC Smith
Time: July 13, 2007, 10:17 pm

Ummm…
Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
(because we can be born again obviously, every commentary that I have read agrees)
Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
(I am guessing you just misquoted the verse here I hope?)

Neither these nor any other scriptures come close to what you are suggesting- that the OT and NT prophetic office has changed in either content or stance.
As for the rarity, it is quite obvious. He appointed SOME apostles, SOME prophets.
SOME by definition excludes ALL.

Comment from slw
Time: July 13, 2007, 11:19 pm

JC,
You’re right, a typo. Matthew 11:11-13.

I think those verses together do suggest the end of the OT prophetic office quite clearly. If you’re not catching the connection in the Luke 7 passage take it back to v. 26, that may help. If any doubt remains, we have 1 Corinth 14:3 which spells out what NT prophecy is meant to communicate. Only a stretch of imagination could take what is said about the subject in the NT as anticipatory of the continuation of OT prophets.

Some doesn’t mean few either, just not all. Certainly, you couldn’t suppose it would be any fewer than apostles, evangelists, or pastor/teachers. I Corinth 14:29 seems to not have any trouble envisioning a ready supply of prophets for the proper functioning of a Holy Ghost church service.

Comment from Michael
Time: July 14, 2007, 12:00 am

Wow! I take a night off to take care of some family business and find 16 messages under this post. I don’t even know where to begin except to say that I mostly agree with Slw.

I don’t see a NT office of prophet operating in the same way as OT Prophets in scripture or in church history. I do see that possibility in the future however with the two prophets in Rev., but the context is unique and is probably different than we are in now.

JC said: “Look at the fruit of this group: One of the major prophetic voices was found to be a homosexual and a drunkard. The major errors of Toronto including birthing all of the laughing, gold dust, angel feathers, portal openings, etc. The incredible number of false words given constantly by their “prophets”.

This is a totally slanted view and does not represent the ‘fruit’ at all but merely manifestations good and/or bad. If a leader falls does that mean his entire ministry was false? Not necessarily!

The real fruit resides in the thousand of people and leaders whose lives and ministries were changed for the better through the Toronto move. Just because the enemy sowed a bunch of garbage should not discount what the Lord did and sowed in the lives of countless thousands from nearly every continent.

You don’t like the laughing JC? Well at the beginning it was a sovereign manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

I was in a conference in Anaheim at the beginning of the Toronto move when the Holy Spirit moved across the auditorium from one end to the other and left everyone in his wake under the Spirit, feeling a deep and abiding joy that goes beyond human understanding and resulted in everyone laughing in joy and ecstasy. I felt very much like I usually do after praying in tongues for an extended period, only with even a deeper feeling of intimacy and closeness with the Lord.

However, a year later I was at another conference and a bunch of folk started laughing trying to duplicate the earlier Toronto/Brownsville laughing manifestation and it was obviously not the Holy Spirit and John Wimber cut it short.

I object to seeking and majoring in such strange manifestations, gold dust, angel feathers, and laughing. However, if God does it, then praise the Lord! See Carl’s comment above. If the enemy sows it, it is to be rejected but not feared. The manifestations may look the same but the origins and the fruit may be different. That is what discernment is all about.

Different manifestations should not a priori be accepted or rejected. They may be from the Lord or on a different day come from the enemy.

Comment from JC Smith
Time: July 14, 2007, 8:37 am

I have to disagree about the office of prophet. I see God raising these men up all throughout history to bring correction or to communicate his heart, usually in the midst of a people that hate them.
What has changed in the OT and NT models? The message of repentance? You claim that the first word in the Gospel has been done away with? Because that was the ministry of the prophet. You don’t see that in church history- a man being raised up to correct the church and preach repentance?
I sure do, I see them being raised up every time that they are needed. It is with the prophetic group alone that this has changed. Even my upbringing in the Pentecostal church taught me what a prophet was compared to the other groups. And it certainly was not someone like Kim Clement.
As far as laughing goes Michael, I never have seen the true manifestation. I have only seen the contrived. Joy is good, who would argue that? But what I saw pointed to something else. I don’t know what it started out as, but I have seen what it ended up as.

Comment from JC Smith
Time: July 14, 2007, 8:38 am

The Toronto Deception

By a former Toronto Vineyard Pastor Paul Gowdy

It has taken me nine years to actually come to the place where I would write this story. Part of the reason was because I was not fully convinced that it is appropriate to speak out against weaknesses in the body of Christ publicly. Another reason is because it has taken years of soul searching to become convinced that what happened in the Toronto Airport Church was actually all bad or at least more bad than good!

For the past number of years I have called it a mixed blessing. I think James A. Beverly called it this in his book Holy Laughter and the Toronto Blessing 1994. Today I would call it a mixed curse concluding that any individual good that came from this experience is far outweighed by much harm and satanic deception. I suppose that therein has been my dilemma. I have tried to live my life in the fear of the Lord and Jesus told us that the unforgivable sin was the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Attributing to Satan what was in fact a work of God. If pressed as to whether or not the Toronto blessing is all God or all Devil I will still be hedgy, but I am convinced that Satan has used this experience to blind people to the historical doctrines of God, to produce fruit in keeping with repentance, to failing to test and discern the spirits and failing to test prophecy.

After three years of being in the thick of the Toronto blessing our Vineyard assembly in Scarborough ( East Toronto) just about self destructed. We devoured one another, with gossip, backstabbing, division, sects criticism etc. After three years of ‘soaking,’ praying for people, shaking, rolling, laughing, roaring, ministering at TACF on their prayer team, leading worship at TACF, preaching at TACF, basically living at TACF we were the most carnal, immature and deceived Christians that I know. I remember saying to my friend and senior pastor at Scarborough Vineyard Church in 1997 that ever since the Toronto Blessing came we have just about fallen to bits! He agreed!

My experience has been that the manifestation of spiritual gifts mentioned in 1st Corinthians 12 was much more common in our assembly, before January 1994 (when the Toronto blessing started.) than during this period of supposed Holy Spirit visitation.

During 1992-1993 when praying for people we would experience what I believe was genuine prophesy, deliverance and much grace and favour from the Lord. After the Toronto Blessing started, all ministry time changed, the only prayers were ‘More Lord MORE ’, the shouting of ‘Fire’ the jerky shaking of the body with the ‘ooh ooh OOH WOOOAAH’ prayer. (I kid you not!)

On January 20th 1994 about 15 people from our church traveled over to Toronto Airport Vineyard in order to listen to Randy Clark, a Vineyard pastor from the USA. John Arnott had called our senior pastor to invite us. He communicated that Randy had been to the Rodney Howard Browne meetings and that the stuff had broke out in his church in the following weeks. John was hoping that something might break out with us too. We were only too happy to travel over. We were a church plant out of the Toronto Airport and we started in 1992. In those days there were three Vineyard Churches in Toronto. One Down Town church, Scarborough vineyard church to the east and the Airport Church. We were one big happy family. Because we were small in number we did special meetings, conferences etc, together.

The year before most of our leadership teams joined and had headed to Nicaragua for a short term missions trip. We had genuine love and fellowship with each other. Since leaving the Vineyard churches I have read a fair bit of analysis from the critics. Some make out that the Toronto Blessing was one huge conspiracy to lead the body of Christ into heresy. Heresy and apostasy I suspect may well be the result, but none of these destinations were intentional. I am honestly convinced that the leaders in the Vineyard churches are genuine born-again Christians who love the Lord, but have fallen into deception. They have not loved the Lord enough to keep His commandments. They have failed to obey the scriptures and have been led astray by our longing for something bigger and brighter and more exciting and dynamic. I am guilty of this sin also. I have preached renewal in Korea, the United Kingdom, the USA and here in Canada. I am genuinely repentant and in writing this story I would ask you the bride and body of Christ to forgive me. Especially the Pentecostal / Charismatic Christians among you, for you are my immediate family theologically. I am an evangelical Christian, I always have been but I do not believe in the cessation of the spiritual gifts at the end of the apostolic era. I believe that it was my evangelical roots (my family are Baptists and I was born again in the Presbyterian Church.) that started to open my eyes to problems with this so called renewal. In hind sight I look back and think how could I have been so blind? I laughed at people acting like dogs and pretending to urinate on the columns of the TACF building. I watched people pretend to be animals, bark, roar, cluck, pretend to fly as if they had wings, perpetually act drunk and sing silly songs. How I thought that any of this was from the Holy Spirit of God amazes me today. It was loud irreverent and blasphemous to the Holy God of the Bible. I suppose in my mind I reasoned that as long as they did not teach any thing in direct violation to scripture then it was what we called the exotic. This is a buzz word for manifestations that could not be justified from a biblical perspective. I was taught from the pulpit that we had two options. The order of the nursery full of life and messy or the order of the graveyard, very orderly but dead! As a young immature pastor I wanted life with mess. I failed to remember that God wants us to become mature and grow up in him. I became disconcerted by the prophetic words that came forth especially one by Carol Arnott in which she had her bride experience where she was taken into the very presence of Jesus and said that the love that she experienced was even better than sex! I was shocked in my spirit and thought how can one compare the love of God with sex? When we suspected that demons were running riot in our services John Arnott would teach that we should ask are they coming or going. If they are leaving then that is ok! John would defend the chaos by saying that we ought not be afraid of being deceived, if we have asked the Holy Spirit to come and fill us then how could Satan come and deceive us? This would make Satan very strong and God very weak! He said that we needed to have more faith in a Big God to protect us than in a Big Devil to deceive us. This sounded very convincing but was totally contrary to scripture for Jesus and Paul and Peter and John all warn us about the power of deceiving spirits and especially so in the last days. Again we did not love God enough to obey His Word and the result was that we opened ourselves up to lying spirits. May God have mercy upon us!

Finally the penny dropped for me as I was rolling around one night ‘drunk in the Spirit’ as we would say. I started singing and as I rolled around the floor the Nursery Rhyme ‘Mary had a little lamb its fleece was white as snow.’ came to mind. I sang this in a mocking spirit and instantly my heart told me this was a demon. Instantly I repented and was in total shock. How could a demon get into me? Did I not love God? Was I not zealous for the things of God? Was I not nuts about Jesus? I knew that an unclean spirit had just manifested through me and I was guilty of great sin. After this experience I stayed away from TACF. I did not go back there any more. I did not possess the conviction to denounce the whole experience but thought that we where failing to pastor the Blessing well enough.

Even after I stopped going over to TACF, I had to pastor the fruit of it. One example was when some of our people returned from a meeting there asking us if we had all received the golden sword of the Lord? I asked them what they were talking about thinking that it was some prophetic reference to the Holy Scriptures but they said, ‘no, its not the Bible, it’s an invisible golden sword that only the really pure can receive. If taken in an unrighteous fashion then the Lord would kill you. But if you are holy enough to receive it then you can wield this sword and it will heal aids, Cancer etc. and bring salvation. How one wielded this sword was by pretending to have this invisible sword in your hand and motioning to strike people with it when in prayer! I thought while even in deception at this time that the TACF had become Looney bins! This was purportedly first received by Carol Arnott and then given to the ones holy enough to receive it! Another thing was the golden fillings in the teeth. We had people in our assembly peeping down one another’s throats looking for the gold fillings that God had placed there to show how much he loved them! In all my time there I only heard one message on repentance given by a visiting speaker from Hong Kong named Jackie Pullinger. It went over like a lead balloon. We were not there to repent, we were there to party in the Lord! After one year into the blessing I spoke out at a pastors meeting and said ‘guys we have shaken, rattled, rolled, laughed cried and bought the tee-shirt. But we have no revival, no salvation, no fruit and no increased evangelism so what’s the deal?’ I was soundly rebuked - who was I to expect to see fruit when the Lord was healing his broken people? We had been legalistic long enough and God was spending this time restoring his wounded and freeing us from legalism I was told not to push the Lord and the harvest would come in his time.’

I knew this was wrong because the Lord had commanded us to go into all the earth and make disciples! Not, that everyone should take a sabbatical for who knows how long, while God does some strange new thing! Ultimately I left over something as controversial as the ordination of women. Personally I believe from scripture that women should not be pastors/ elders in a local assembly. I could be wrong on this and there is much debate in the Church today but that is my conviction and in the Vineyard churches they were ordaining all the pastors wives to co pastor with them. I am certainly for women in ministry but believe that the Elder/ pastor role in a local assembly has been reserved for men. I did not write scripture but God willing I will have the grace from now on to obey it.

So there is my story. I could go on and document much excess, folly, sin and latter day reign teaching that manifest from the prophetic end of this Blessing but others have already done that. We sang about Joel’s army and the billion soul revival as if it were one of the Ten Commandments, and as always it was just around the corner. Next month, next year etc. Jesus said that when the son of man returns will he find faith upon the earth? And if he does not return when he does no flesh would be saved but for the sake of the elect he comes. This is a far cry from the dominionism that is being taught all through the vineyard / prophetic/ spiritual warfare movement. I honestly think that they think they are going to take over the whole world! While in the Vineyard I embraced a life verse from the Apostle Paul the phrase do not go beyond what is written!

To finish I just want to say sorry for the damage, that I have personally done by teaching things that are not correct biblically. I repent before men as I already have before God. I will not excuse my falling into deception. I did not bother to test things when the scriptures commanded us to do so. Everyone who was there when this thing started knows that what I write is true, they would just come to different conclusions especially if they are still promoting the ‘river!’

To those in the river I would say swim out, there are things living in the water that will bite you real good! I love the people of TACF and the Vineyard movement but I think that we have much to answer for and may the Lord open your eyes sooner rather than later. I suspect that when this letter goes online I will get bombarded by emails from both camps, some damning me for still believing in the ministry of the Holy Spirit and still walking in deception and some old friends damning me for exposing dirt or being negative about the Lords anointed! Well, the Lord knows my heart and by his grace he will guide me into all truth as I seek to know Christ and him crucified! If you believe that I walk in sin and error please pray for me that the Lord would forgive me and open my eyes. I will study the word to show my self a work man approved! I would call on all who read this to pray that the Lord would open the eyes of all who have been involved in this deception. Whether leader or follower, we are loved and the Lord is a forgiving God. He says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. I believe we are like the church in Laodicea, we think that we are rich, have prospered and need nothing, we do not realise that we are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked. We must take the Counsel of Jesus and buy gold refined in the fire (which is his suffering, not a false spirit!), white garments to clothe our shameful nakedness and salve for our eyes that we might see again. Jesus is calling us to repentance and thank the Lord that he is, for it will lead us to true restoration with our Father! If God has forgiven me and opened my eyes then he can do it for all those caught in deception too. I will finish with a warning from Paul, he says if you think you are standing firm be careful lest you fall.

Sincerely Paul Gowdy.

Comment from Michael
Time: July 14, 2007, 6:10 pm

I totally disagree with Paul Gowdy on Toronto. I read his testimony two or three months ago on ’sign of Jonah’ and find it rather one-sided.

JC- The message of repentance is not the only valid prophetic function. There have not been to date any New Testament prophets similar to those in OT. There are guys preaching the word and calling for repentance but none of their words have been added to scripture have they.

Obviously JC we are going to disagree on Toronto. However, I’m going to take another look at what the NT says about prophets and the prophetic.

Comment from slw
Time: July 14, 2007, 8:42 pm

Michael,
You are correct about the message of repentance. To preach repentance is to preach the gospel. It is not the exclusive purview of the prophet, but is also the field of the apostle, evangelist, and pastor/teacher too. Anyone preaching what Jesus preached will preach repentance.

My next post will be addressing this subject of prophet and prophecy. I wish we could compare notes! I’ll link it to this post when it’s ready.

Comment from JC Smith
Time: July 15, 2007, 12:19 am

Michael, I welcome you to enlighten me on Toronto. I think that I have shown you my being open to different perspectives in our short relationship. I will argue, have no fear but when I am wrong, I admit it.
In regards to prophets, I have been searching for those who shared my view on the office of a prophet. I have not been disappointed. Tozer, Reidhead, Allen, Wilkerson, Sumrall, Parsley, Green, Pratney, Murillo, Katz, Brown, these are just a few of the names.
It is on this issue that the repentance crowd broke from the prophetic crowd a few years ago. And it is still a sore spot as far as I can tell by this conversation.
We need prophets in the church and the world today. But not the ones that have usurped the title in the absence of the real thing. We need the ones like Tozer describes:

This frightening hour calls aloud for men with the gift of prophetic insight. Instead we have men who conduct surveys, polls and panel discussions. We need men with the gift of knowledge. In their place we have men with scholarship—nothing more.

If the church in the second half of this century is to recover from the injuries she suffered in the first half, there must appear a new type of preacher. The proper, ruler-of-the-synagogue type will never do. Neither will the priestly type of man who carries out his duties, takes his pay and asks no questions, nor the smooth-talking pastoral type who knows how to make the Christian religion acceptable to everyone. All these have been tried and found wanting. Another kind of religious leader must arise among us. He must be of the old prophet type, a man who has seen visions of God and has heard a voice from the Throne. When he comes (and I pray God there will be not one but many) he will stand in flat contradiction to everything our smirking, smooth civilization holds dear. He will contradict, denounce and protest in the name of God and will earn the hatred and opposition of a large segment of Christendom.

We desperately need seers who can see through the mist—Christian leaders with prophetic vision. Unless they come soon it will be too late for this generation. And if they do come we will no doubt crucify a few of them in the name of our worldly orthodoxy.

Christianity is so entangled with the world that millions never guess how radically they have missed the New Testament pattern. Compromise is everywhere.

Keep your feet on the ground, but let your heart soar as high as it will. Refuse to be average or to surrender to the chill of your spiritual environment.

Perhaps our greatest present need may be the coming of a prophet to dash the stones at the foot of the mountain and call the Church out to repentance or to judgment.

For a man to understand revealed truth requires an act of God equal to the original act which inspired the text.

We need to learn that truth consists not in correct doctrine, but in correct doctrine plus the inward enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.

Men who have been used of God in any generation from Calvary down to this hour have not invented and preached new truths. They have simply had the anointed vision to discover truths that had been obscured by the overemphasis of certain other truths.

The church has lost her testimony. She has no longer anything to say to the world. Her once robust shout of assurance has faded away to an apologetic whisper. She who one time went out to declare now goes out to inquire. Her dogmatic declaration has become a respectful suggestion, a word of religious advice, given with the understanding that it is after all only an opinion and not meant to sound bigoted.

Pure Christianity, instead of being shaped by its environment, actually stands in sharp opposition to it.

Could it be that too many of God’s true children, and especially the preachers, are sinning against God by guilty silence?…I for one am waiting to hear the loud voices of the prophets and reformers sounding once more over a sluggish and drowsy church. They’ll pay a price for their boldness, but the results will be worth it.

To be right with God has often meant to be in trouble with men. This is such a common truth that one hesitates to mention it, yet it appears to have been overlooked by the majority of Christians today.

Apart from God nothing matters. We think that health matters, that freedom matters, or knowledge or art or civilization. And but for one insistent word they would matter indeed. That word is eternity.

We are in real need of a reformation that will lead to revival among the churches.

The man who has been taught by the Holy Spirit will be a seer rather than a scholar. The difference is that the scholar sees and the seer sees through; and that is a mighty difference indeed.

The apostles went to jail, and that is not too revealing because they went against their will; but when they got out of jail and could go where they would they immediately went to the praying company. The choices of life, not the compulsions, reveal character.

Moral power has always accompanied definitive beliefs. Great saints have always been dogmatic. We need right now a return to a gentle dogmatism that smiles while it stands stubborn and firm on the Word of God that liveth and abideth forever.

The unsatisfied longings of the prophets for human understanding caused them to cry out in their complaint, and even our Lord Himself suffered in the same way. The man who has passed on into the divine Presence in actual inner experience will not find many who understand him.

I believe that the imperative need of the day is not simply revival, but a radical reformation that will go to the root of our moral and spiritual maladies and deal with causes rather than with consequences, with the disease rather than with symptoms.

When the children of God accept the world’s values it is time some Christians spoke up. Babylon may have her gods, her own way of life and moral standards. It is when Israel begins to adopt them that the prophet of God becomes responsible to rise and cry out against them.

Truth consists not merely in correct doctrine but in correct doctrine to which is added the inward enlightenment of the Holy Spirit…John the Baptist said, “A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven” (John 3:27). He was not referring to men’s gifts. He was speaking of spiritual truth.

The radical element in testimony and life that once made Christians hated by the world is missing from present-day evangelicalism.

It is useless for large companies of believers to spend long hours begging God to send revival. Unless we intend to reform we may as well not pray. Unless praying men have the insight and faith to amend their whole way of life to conform to the New Testament pattern there can be no true revival.

The fact is that we are not today producing saints. We are making converts to an effete type of Christianity that bears little resemblance to that of the New Testament. The average so-called Bible Christian in our times is but a wretched parody on true sainthood. Yet we put millions of dollars behind movements to perpetuate this degenerate form of religion and attack the man who dares to challenge the wisdom of it.

And when the deliverers come—reformers, revivalists, prophets—they will be men of God and men of courage. They will have God on their side because they will be careful to stay on God’s side. They will be co-workers with Christ and instruments in the hand of the Holy Ghost. Such men will be baptized with the Spirit indeed…

Our only hope is that renewed spiritual pressure will be exerted increasingly by self-effacing and courageous men who desire nothing but the glory of God and the purity of the church. May God send us many of them.

Today we need prophetic preachers; not preachers of prophecy merely, but preachers with a gift of prophecy. The word of wisdom is missing. We need the gift of discernment again in our pulpits.

What is needed desperately today is prophetic insight. Scholars can interpret the past; it takes prophets to interpret the present.

Any spirit that permits compromise with the world is a false spirit. Any religious movement that imitates the world in any of its manifestations is false to the cross of Christ and on the side of the devil.

The popular notion that the first obligation of the church is to spread the gospel to the uttermost parts of the earth is false. Her first obligation is to be spiritually worthy of it.

Some who desire to be teachers of the Word, but who understand neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm, insist upon “naked” faith as the only way to know spiritual things. By this they mean a conviction of the trustworthiness of the Word of God (a conviction, it may be noted, which the devils share with them). But the man who has been taught even slightly by the Spirit of Truth will rebel at this perversion. His language will be, “I have heard Him and observed Him. What have I to do any more with idols?” For he cannot love a God who is no more than a deduction from a text.

The man who preaches truth and applies it to the lives of his hearers will feel the nails and the thorns. He will lead a hard life, but a glorious one. May God raise up many such prophets. The church needs them badly.

The truly spiritual man is indeed something of an oddity. He lives not for himself but to promote the interests of Another…He finds few who care to talk about that which is the supreme object of his interest, so he is often silent and preoccupied in the midst of noisy religious shoptalk. For this he earns the reputation of being dull and over-serious, so he is avoided and the gulf between him and society widens.

Comment from Michael
Time: July 15, 2007, 10:48 am

JC: I agree with you and Tozer on the state of the church.

I love your heart and I know you are only seeking the truth and the best. That is why I let your comments stand even though I may disagree with you on some things right now.

I have read Tozer before and I believe that he is talking about the function of (p)rophet and not necessarily looking for an ‘office’ of (P)rophet. If God wants to bring back the OT style office of Prophet in the last generation I am all for it. I just have not seen it yet.

Comment from JC Smith
Time: July 15, 2007, 5:39 pm

Hey, if the so-called NT prophets simply acted according to the function of prophet I would be happy.
BTW, Agabus did not act like a OT prophet in your opinion? The brother seemed to act a whole lot like Ezekiel to my thinking.
Now, all of the descriptions of church offices are rather aren’t they Pastor is mentioned what, 8 times in the entire Bible? And yet somehow they run the modern church with no scriptural mandate whatsoever to do so.
Prophet at least has an OT counterpart by which to base what they do on but somehow the prophetic mandate has changed from the OT to the NT?

Comment from Michael
Time: July 16, 2007, 7:20 am

If we had more Agabus’s today the church would be better for it.

Agabus is a case in the point that I am trying to make. He didn’t have the same authority of the OT prophets, the Apostles had superceeded the NT prophets in that regard.

He gave a prophecy to Paul about what would happen if he went back to Jerusalem. It was not 100% correct but had some error and in the OT they would have stoned him. He misunderstood the message the Lord gave him and tried to persuade Paul from going.

The Apostle Paul understood what Agabus was saying but disregarded it and went anyway. Why because he was rebellious? No! He went because he had greater revelation and authority and the Lord told him to go to Jerusalem and he went in obedience.

The revelation that Agabus received was for the benefit of the church and to prepare them for what was coming.

I agree with you on pastor. Pastor is another case in point that makes my argument. It is a function or type of ministry rather than an office. We have made it an office today.

Comment from slw
Time: July 16, 2007, 8:37 am

Michael,
Interesting take on Agabus. Never looked at it quite that way. Very interesting.

Comment from JC Smith
Time: July 16, 2007, 9:01 am

I am getting the sense that we are talking about different things here. First- I do not believe that Prophets are 100% correct now. The word spoken is no longer objective (coming from God and taking over the tongue of the speaker) nor is it totally subjective as it was with Jesus (he was the word after all) but instead the word comes to us and then gets filtered through our limited understanding and flesh. I have always said that prophecy is 80 percent perspiration and 20 percent inspiration.

Secondly, I do not think that what a prophet says should be on par with scripture.

I said that there is a difference between the gift and the office and that those who claim the gift today have little of the classic hallmarks to show it such as “Cry loud, spare not!” The understanding of the Pentecostal church has always been that the prophet brings direction and correction- not just personal prophecy. This is a recent fad in the church that I don’t see any proof of in scripture- except in the case of Baalam.

In regards to the other things that you wrote, Michael:

Everywhere that I read about Paul going to Jerusalem it says that Paul determined to go to there, not that he was led to go there. In fact, it seems quite the opposite- that God kept warning him not to go just yet.

Not to be argumentative but I was also looking for where Agabus was wrong and can’t see it. He said there would be a great dearth and it came to pass and he said that Paul would be bound at Jerusalem and he was.

Comment from Michael
Time: July 16, 2007, 11:30 pm

JC:

1. We are now in agreement that the NT office or ministry of prophet is not 100% correct all the time?

You were quite specific in several of your comments that the NT prophet was a continuation of the OT model of the office of Prophet and had not changed. Yet the OT prophets were suppose to be 100% correct or they were to be disregarded or stoned. Therefore there has been in fact a change between the two models.

2. It was now the Apostles that wrote with 100% authority in the NT era. The Apostles had greater authority than the prophets in the NT era. A cursory reading of the NT proves that to be so.

3. Paul was an Apostle, if you take the position that Paul went to Jerusalem merely because he wanted to, than he was in rebellion against a clear word from the Lord. I have heard and read some Bible teachers take that view. I disagree completely with that take. It does not Biblically make any sense.

If you study the ministry of Paul, he never went anywhere except where the Lord guided him to go. Since Paul went to Jerusalem in spite of the clear prophecy of Agabus, he had to have been directed by the Lord to go. That is the only reasonable conclusion that one can make which does not violate the character of Paul as presented in scripture. Also, much of the Pauline corpus was written later in prison, which goes against the ‘rebellion’ theory.

In fact, in Acts 21:13 Paul says that he is willing to be bound and even die in the name of the Lord in Jerusalem. This sounds like conviction born of the Spirit, not some arbitrary individual decision. If not, than it violates everything that we know about Paul.

4. There are some discrepancies between the prophecy of Agabus and what really ended up taking place. In Acts 21:11, Agabus says that the Jews of Jerusalem will bind Paul and hand him over to the Gentiles.

However, if you read the account in Acts 21:30-36, a Jewish crowd tries to kill Paul and were stopped from beating him to death by the Roman troops. In verse 33 it was the Romans who took Paul and bound him.

The Jews of Jerusalem did not willingly hand him over to the Gentile Roman troops nor were they the ones who bound him. Therefore the prophecy of Agabus was not 100% correct.

5. You seem to be bothered by ‘personal’ prophecies and yet Agabus obviously gives Paul a personal prophecy. Some you have quoted are upset with so-called ‘Prophetic Movement’ folk who give sweeping prophecies about world events and yet Agabus gives a rather sweeping prophecy about a drought?

6. Agabus is the best example of a NT prophet that scripture has to offer and we sure could use a bunch like him today. In fact, I happen to believe that the Lord is calling and training hundreds of prophets like him right now. Yet as good as he was, Agabus did not rise to the level of the office of OT Prophet.

Comment from Carl
Time: July 18, 2007, 10:18 am

Here is my problem with the theory that the role of the OT prophet continues today.

The veil has been torn. The role of the 5 fold ministry is to equip the saints for the work of ministry. If the office of the ot prophet is still in operation then we would need to go to the prophet to inquire of the Lord. So much for a kingdom of priests.

To me, the difference between the gift of prophesy and the office of prophet is one of authority.

The gift of prophesy for edification exhortation and equipping.

In addition to these things, the office of the prophet moves in correction, direction and warning.

The folks I disciple are encouraged to move in the first grouping and forbidden to operate in the second without it being judged y me or another leader.

Comment from Michael
Time: July 18, 2007, 4:37 pm

Carl, I believe that you are correct on all your points and practice.

Comment from slw
Time: July 18, 2007, 9:52 pm

http://thundersounds.blogspot.com/2007/07/what-does-it-prophet.html

Comment from Michael
Time: July 18, 2007, 10:27 pm

Slw: Thanks for your excellent contribution and continuing the conversation on another level.

Comment from vanessa
Time: July 21, 2007, 6:12 pm

From Carl

“Here is my problem with the theory that the role of the OT prophet continues today.

The veil has been torn. The role of the 5 fold ministry is to equip the saints for the work of ministry. If the office of the ot prophet is still in operation then we would need to go to the prophet to inquire of the Lord. So much for a kingdom of priests.

To me, the difference between the gift of prophesy and the office of prophet is one of authority.

The gift of prophesy for edification exhortation and equipping.

In addition to these things, the office of the prophet moves in correction, direction and warning.

The folks I disciple are encouraged to move in the first grouping and forbidden to operate in the second without it being judged y me or another leader. ”
——————————–

This is a really confusing issue in churches today. Think about being a woman and the confusion multiplies by leaps because you have the issue of leadership in the churches. The Bible says rather clearly women are not to usurp authority over men. Usurp simply meaning to take the place of. Yet usurping is accepted today as if it were a major doctrine in the Word.

I have been going through a transition for years in terms of re-assessing, the Word of God vs. The Word of pulpits. I have had to really keep a watch in the Word and repent for much over the years though some was done out of ignorance of Scripture.

The role of Prophet in the New Testament under the 5 fold being to some, to equip the saints, is riddled by movements within the five fold.

I don’t believe prophets in the New Testament differ in their calling before God (aside from the writing of Scripture) than those under the Old Testament. What is different it appears is that New Testament prophets function in the body of Christ and O.T. prophets functioned within the nation of Israel. Both are nations in God’s eyes.

When it comes to function God still awakes and sends prophets when there is a reason to. As far as in the five-fold operation, I think that is only part of their role to the body. Individually they have their separate offices to fulfill before God.

Agabus was not teaching when he came down from Jerusalem to warn of the dearth that was coming to all the world. But he was walking in the office of prophet. How many believe prophets today when they warn of similar things?

He also showed up at Philip’s home and detailed a prophecy of what would happen to Paul at the hands of the Jews of Jerusalem. We see both these examples operating in churches today.

So though I believe the five-fold was called to equip the church, I also believe as in the case of prophet, no one can call a prophet or ordain them, just as they could not in the Old Testament.

We have few examples of prophets in our churches today. True prophets are like Agabus. God never tells us much about him he just appears when there is a word from God and then he disappears off the pages of Scripture until the next time.

Like Old testament prophets he gives a word concerning things that are for the nations or will affect the nations.

His role in the church would be to equip the church in this area so that we are not deceived by the falsehoods in the church and he would be equipping others in the body who are appointed to the same ministry. Each of the five-fold equipping under their categorical role in the church would result in the body being thoroughly equipped and very difficult to deceive.

It is unfortunate that there is a lot of teaching about the five-fold and their leadership, but so little in comparison, to warning about false apostles, prophets etc. which the Apostles of the Lamb never failed to do.

Comment from Patsy
Time: August 5, 2007, 12:32 am

The problem here is that people are equating the condition of the church in the 1st world nations with THE CHURCH.

From what I can see, the church in the rest of the world is doing quite well. The Bakers over in Africa are having a ball. Something like 7,000 churches planted, whole villages of Muslims converted and people walking humbly in fantastic power. South Korea seems to have it going on as well.

The problem with being the doctrine police is that eventually you have a church of one, because no one else meets your standards.

T

Comment from Patsy
Time: August 5, 2007, 12:47 am

My computer gliched as I wrote my comment.

One of the things that really irritates me is how people will jump up and down about the Prophetic Movement and the problems there in, but what other things that are going on? I don’t hear too many people screaming about the fact that the Southern Baptist Convention has no way to keep sex offenders out of their pulpits. I rather think that might be just a tad more of a deviation from the purposes of God than whether or not a NT prophet has to dot every i and cross every t in a prophetic utterance.

I have read David Wilkerson’s stuff as well. I can point out specific prophecies he has made that have not come to pass. Therefore by your definition, he is a false prophet. By your standard, then, none of the work he has done counts because he is a false prophet.

Reality is that according to the NT, we only see in part and that through a glass darkly. All of the gifts, all of the offices depend on walking in intimate fellowship with the Holy Spirit. You can be totally accurate in your prophecies and be operating in a spirit of divination. The heart of the matter is source.

There is a reason that Paul spoke of Love in the midst of his discussion of gifts. Anything that does not come out of a heart of love, a heart that is supremely motivated by a passionate love for Jesus Christ is false, whether it be a sermon or a prophecy. Anything other than the divine love operating through us leaves us as a clanging gong, no matter what we claim our gifts or office to be.

Comment from Michael
Time: August 5, 2007, 1:04 am

Patsy: Thanks for your comments. I am in agreement with nearly everything you have said.

However you have misunderstood my point on OT prophets being 100%. I do not consider David Wilkerson to be a ‘false prophet’ but rather a faithful servant. I merely believe that the NT prophetic model and expectation is different than that of the OT office of prophet.

In fact, that was the point of my comments about Agabus. He was recognized as a faithful NT prophet and demonstrates that the model for NT prophets is different than that of the OT office of Prophet.

Comment from slw
Time: August 9, 2007, 9:14 am

Michael
“I merely believe that the NT prophetic model and expectation is different than that of the OT office of prophet.”

I like your analysis the Dave Wilkerson issue. There was an interesting discussion about some of these practical issues on Jesse Phillips site ( http://earnestlydesire.blogspot.com/2007/08/question-of-week.html ) you may want to chime in on. God bless!

Comment from john
Time: January 15, 2008, 12:51 am

I think that it might be interesting to note that the office of prophet in the Old Testament included having power over the nations for prophetic judgments (decisions) or rulings of God regarding worldly nations and Kingdoms.

Comment from Clay
Time: February 18, 2008, 12:38 pm

The prophetic movement seems like a move of God, but IS NOT!!!!! I also was involved in the prophetic movement. I went to Christ for the Nations and was involved with Cindy Jacobs and other leaders of the prophetic movement. I was also involved with IHOP. I was touched by what I thought was God, in many wonderful ways. I thought I had finally discovered God, after 15 years of searching. But something was amiss. I began looking at the doctrines of IHOP, CFNI, and the Latter Rain movement. I seen how CFNI was born out of the healing movement of a man named Branham. I began to see how the prophetic movement was all born out of the Latter Rain movement and was completely false in every sense of the matter. I don’t have time to go into all the doctrines of the Prophetic movement but have come to the conclusion that it is nothing more than a move for world domination. After discovering this I fled IHOP and have been in spriritual recovery for the last year. For those who believe the Prophetic movement is a move of God I challenge you to search deeply into the doctrines of the prophetic movement. You will be able to trace the whole movement to false prophets and heretics. I encourage you to get out now. This is a warning. They are a like a spiritual vaccum that will suck all of your personality and common sense out of you. But you will find the leaving hard. There doctine is like a tattoo that won’t leave your soul. It has taken me a whole year to finally get free of what the prophetic movement tried to do to me. I’m just glad I got out when I did before I was sucked into it any deeper. These people are the people who will stand before Jesus and say, “Did we not cast out demons, heal the sick, and raise the dead?” And God will say, “Depart from me, I never knew you.” These are the sort that work there way into people’s houses through books, television, and prophetic words, and subvert whole households, not knowing that their judgment is coming, they are black spots for whom the blackest of darkness is reserved forever. My advice…..GET OUT NOW WHILE YOU STILL HAVE THE INTELLECT AND WILL TO DO SO. DON’T LET THEM BRAINWASH YOU OR TAKE OVER YOU MIND AND WILL LIKE THEY HAVE DONE TO SO MANY OTHERS. YOUR HEART AND SOUL BELONG TO JESUS AND HIM ONLY.

Comment from Michael
Time: February 18, 2008, 4:13 pm

Clay-

God is moving prophetically in the church today.

I have read tons about the ‘latter rain move’ which started out as a move of God but ended up something different.

Not everyone is responding properly to God’s prophetic move in the church today and that includes all those who reject it totally.

I really do get tired of all those who want to wrap everyone in a neat little package and give it all a title. Particularly those who don’t necessarily see themselves as part of a ‘movement’.

None of the excesses and junk sowed by the enemy can ever discount a real and valid move of God to re-establish the proper place of the gift of prophesy in the church today and those who are called to minister in that gifting.